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| No, seriously stop. |
First off, if you believe GK are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade you obviously aren't paying attention. Fantasy Daemons broke an entire game. They broke 7th edition, VCs get a 2nd place nod in that if it weren't for Daemons then Vampire Counts would have done it. Grey Knights did not break 40k 5th edition. Think they did? Then by all means plead your case in the comments; but be prepared to back it up because I am 100% certain that anything they did to 5th pales in comparison to what Daemons did to 7th ed Fantasy.
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| I am being serious. |
Grey Knights are not unbeatable, they did not break an entire gaming system, they are not completely dominating every tournament, they do not take brand new players and let them just beat veteran players, there is no push button GK list either. So what is it you're whining about again? That Draigo lists are tough? That Purifier based lists using Crowe are tough? That Coteaz Henchmen lists are tough? That Psyfleman are good, that Razorbacks with psybolt are good, that Stormravens are good? What I think the problem people have with this codex isn't that it is too good, but that there are too many options. There are a myriad of builds that are good in the codex. Is it true you see a lot of Draigo lists? Yes, of course you do, the list is the cheapest one to build for 40k! It basically boils down to codex envy. People are hurt that their codices, SW excepted of course they are the exception to everything in the 40k metaverse, aren't filled with as many build options as the GK book. So maybe it is not that the GK codex is so insanely OP but that the other codices are too poorly written.
Wow, I haven't ever heard that complaint before on the internet. Poor codex design? No. That horse hasn't been beaten to death on every 40k forum and blog on the internet a 1000 times over. Just an observation to end this little rant of mine before the wave of hate and spite hit me. 40k internet trolls whine when a codex is too poorly written with out enough options or special rules and tricks that allow them to build and use multiple units from a codex, then turn around and bitch and complain even louder when GW puts out a codex that has a huge number, comparatively, of units that are good and worth taking in a myriad number of builds and unlock-able list designs. Just proves you can't make anyone on the internet happy. Ever.
Disclaimer to those of you who were at the BAO. I am in no way writing this in response to my 4th round opponent who politely conceded instead of playing against GK for a 3rd round in a row, after a terrible game the day before. If you're reading this, please know I understood your concession and have no problem with it or you as I expressed when we were hanging out after the match.
I've been lucky honestly. In my area, I'm one of only 2 players who started playing them after the new Codex came out. After a few dozen games, many people at my local store started to realize they aren't the Overpowered monster that the internet says they are.
ReplyDeleteAsk them about my Space Wolves on the other hand and you have one hell of an uphill battle...
I agree, my SW are a better army over all than my GK. I am just really tired of playing Space Wolves, I had been playing them since the new SW codex came out and I needed a break.
DeletePretty much the same reason here, with the exception that I had been waiting in anticipation of fielding an all terminator Grey Knight army with Storm Ravens and Dreadknights :-)
DeleteSo, your argument boils down GK aren't broken because: a) you haven't won shit with them; and b) you can beat them with the other top tier codices (IG, SW, and Salamanders), while at the same time admitting you don't play with "non-competitive" codices. The complaints against GK (valid, IMO) should not be levied by SW, BA, IG, and other SM players who have all the advantages in 5E, but Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Sisters, etc. certainly can complain about the GK bullshit. I don't mean the stupid stuff that's not actually competitive (i.e., Draigowing, Paladins, Stormravens, Vindicares, and all the other "shiny toys" that only idiots worry about), I'm talking about the plethora of douche bag shit in the codex:
ReplyDeletePsybolt ammo for next to nothing, turning heavy bolters into useful and Psycannons and Dread ACs into awesome
Fortitude that renders all those shooty dreads unstunnable
Warp Quake that removes any hope of deep striking melta teams near said dreads
Cleansing Flame that rapes horde armies
Hammerhand insane it's stackability and how it works with other bullshit like I6 Halberds and Rad Grenades
12 pt scoring units (that can still contribute via a cheap Razorback)
Cheap, good Razorbacks that provide cover (3+ with Shrouding) for said Rifledreads
3-pt servo skulls that prevent scout/infiltrate
Army-wide power weapons (force weapons)
Army-wide wound allocation shenanigans
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It's an army with zero weaknesses. None. Everything can be mitigated and cheaply. It's exceptionally grating to hear GK player bemoan their stigma while enjoying advantages that no other codex can even approach. You want to impress us and justify your stance? Don't play GK with IG, SW, and Salamanders. Play them with Nids, Chaos Daemons, Sisters, Dark Eldar, Eldar, any of the number of armies that GK RAPE. Not everyone has the ability to play 4+ armies of their choice and pick and choose from amongst the strongest of the strong. Play one of the lesser armies against this bullshit and see if you don't cry foul a little bit.
Eldar do really well against GK. You complain quite a bit about psychic powers, make us take them on 3 dice. One of my toughest match ups with GK have been Eldar.
DeleteThe complaint boils down simply, GK are written well with a myriad of good options, the other books are not. Therefore the codex writing needs to improve.
The wound allocation shenanigans may be army wide but only matter on a single unit, Paladins, because only a single unit capable of it is also multi wound which is when it actually matters.
Completely agree with anonymous.
DeleteEldar do ok because of one good thing in their one good build.
they suffer against alot of the rest of the edition though, just cause they can hold their own just about vs GK does not magically fix that dex overnight.
I agree with that Sorrow. I don't think Eldar are magically great but since he brought up that I should play them with Eldar I wanted to point that out. I wish Eldar and all the codices were better overall.
DeleteNow build a list which has everything you just said:
Delete"Psybolt ammo for next to nothing, turning heavy bolters into useful and Psycannons and Dread ACs into awesome "
List must have Dreads and Razorbacks and Psycannons.
*psybolt don't work on psycannons btw
"Fortitude that renders all those shooty dreads unstunnable "
Check.
"Warp Quake that removes any hope of deep striking melta teams near said dreads"
List must have Strike Squads and/or Interceptors.
"Cleansing Flame that rapes horde armies"
List must have Purifiers.
"Hammerhand insane it's stackability and how it works with other bullshit like I6 Halberds and Rad Grenades"
List must now have a Techmarine with Grenades, Grand Master with Grenades, or Inquisitor with Grenades.
"12 pt scoring units (that can still contribute via a cheap Razorback)"
List must now have Coteaz. List must now have 12 point acolyte units.
"Cheap, good Razorbacks that provide cover (3+ with Shrouding) for said Rifledreads"
List must now have a Librarian with shrouding. (So GM with Grenades and Inquisitor with Grenades is out, must have a Techmarine now)
"3-pt servo skulls that prevent scout/infiltrate"
Librarian has to take the servo skulls now.
"Army-wide power weapons (force weapons)"
Problem here because acolytes can't have force weapons, but you are good on everything else.
"Army-wide wound allocation shenanigans"
List must now have Paladins which are the only unit in the book with wound allocation. Your elite slot just got full because you now need a Techmarine, Purifiers, and Paladins and can't take Crowe because your HQ is full.
Do all of those things for 1500, 1750, and 2000 points AND do it while still building a list that isn't going to be terrible, and you will see why GK's aren't as OMGWTFBROKEN as you think.
Just like many other codices with lots of toys, Guard, Wolves, Necrons, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and on, there are a lot of WOWWOULDYALOOKATHAT?!, but you can't make a cohesive list with it.
Your point about older codices being a good bit weaker is valid, but that's not the fault of the Grey Knight codex by any stretch of the imagination. The same vitriol was poured onto Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and even Dark Eldar (bless them), and Crons, who are now sweeping tournaments, not GKs, will get the same. And one day, your Eldar or your Space Marines will get the same boost and just like when Eldar when the OMG-OP at the end of 4th, and Space Marines were the UNSTOPPABLE juggernaut at the start of 5th, it'll go full circle.
How to form a response to this ....
ReplyDeletethe fact that someone in a tourney had three games in a row vs Gk and decided to concede speaks volumes about what's going on.
I'm sure it is a lot to do with codex envy , do I wish my DE got the same treatment hell yeah, do I resent having to play a codex that gives my opponent all the tools to beat everything, hell yes to that too.
the fact that T/o's are serious about making the GK spam play against itself tells me something too ..... I know a local tourney that had a 25% turnout of GK, subsequently another guy who is setting up a local tourney has decided to first round all the GK against each other IF there are waay too many.
It may not have broken an edition exactly but it has largely spoiled the tournament scene (for you too it seems)
Personally I just wish all the books were balanced enough across the board that people can play what they want to play because they like the fluff/background/ feel of an army, not just because the think the best chance of winning.
Honestly how amazing would it be to a fairly even representation of armies at each tourney, part of the pleasure of the game for me is not just playing a certain army because I like the way it plays/looks but also in playing other peoples armies , the way the game is different , playing noting but Gk, IG and marines all the time frankly sucks.
The amount of people who suddenly started *%&$£ about liking GK all along is just flat hilarious.(we all know at least one)
Really it should be player skill that matters most, this GK book has kinda proved that people think it's the best book that matters most (even the good players who have dropped their other armies in favour) and with the game design the way it is there is more than a grain of truth to it.
I play DE , I will continue to play DE even though I believe the book to be inferior to Crons and GK, I will continue to do well and take pride in the fact that I'm not a bandwagoner and I dont need the crutch an OP or 'strong' book represents, tbh unless played well they are inferior to SW and IG too.
Did you post this to get your hits up ? any of these subjects is likely to turn into an epic fireball , you trollin ?
"Personally I just wish all the books were balanced enough across the board that people can play what they want to play because they like the fluff/background/ feel of an army, not just because the think the best chance of winning."
DeleteI wish for the same, and honestly I think the Necron book has a lot of legs to it just like the GK book. Once more of the Necron units are out I think we'll see that.
"Did you post this to get your hits up ? any of these subjects is likely to turn into an epic fireball , you trollin ?"
Lol no. I wish I had done it for that, but as I have no advertising on the site I don't care much about how many hits I get. Can I troll myself?
heh, Just chekin. Coz currently this as GOT to be the best way to generate a stupid amount of hits.
DeleteNecrons are good, more pure unadulterated 'annoying' than overpowered.
GK is definitely a bad matchup for DE. I have never lost to a DE army with my GK. However, why is it that you never hear a DE player calling out to buff 'nids or Orks? I'm not saying I'm the super awesome hotness of grey knightness, but people only cry out to nerf things that beat them and don't look at the disadvantages other codexes have against theirs.
DeleteAlso, not all armies have answers to all lists from other armies. With the plethora of lists from all the different codexes out there, you are bound to run into a bad matchup. If you are playing in tournaments, then this is just something you have to suck up and accept.
I've been mostly playing with deathwing and mech eldar since the grey knights dropped... I've never lost to grey knights... I've lost repeatedly to dark eldar, marines and tyranids... Oh, these are the sucky codices? Imperial guard and space wolves we can all agree are near the top of the pile. GNits are good, and they have units that make you sweat but they're not auto win.
ReplyDeletein the end they have exactly the same probably of dying to a bolter etc as any other marine. Just shoot them!
Grey Knight can't punch through Av 13 and 14 armor to save their life which is good news if you have access to it like Imperial Guard, anyone who can take a Landraider, and Necrons.
ReplyDeleteIt is a legitimate weakness in their codex, but that leaves a lot of armies out in the cold against them. I mean I only play Tyranids which means my armor is nonexistent what am I supposed to do? Dark Eldar are equally boned in this respect.
I mean the codex writers obviously denied Grey Knights the ability to punch through heavy armor to stop them from being broken, but its like nobody considered that not all armies have access to said awesome units like Monoliths and Landraiders.