 |
| Only you can control how you act. You're an adult, don't forget it :) |
For the most part we are all adults here. Some of us act more like it than others but it still forms a basic truism for our community. As adults we should be able to control our responses to events, phenomenon, discussions etc. For the past 2 years we have seen a rash of reaction and counterreaction to the "Counts As" phenomenon both on the Net and, for those of us who actually leave the confines of our houses and the web to play, at our FLGS'. I have seen both online and in person a wide variety of Counts As and an equally wide variety of responses to it. I would like to explore ways we, as adults, can deal with phenomenon in an adult manner; both as the creators of a Counts As force and as the person playing against a Counts As force. More after the break.
 |
| Librarian Dreads. Obvious Counts As. |
Goat Boy was not the creator of Counts As armies. Although he may be getting the most heat for it in the last few years he certainly did not create it. In all honesty his Counts As armies are hardly the one people should be getting upset over. Although they have Goat heads and Beastman bits they are all armed in a WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) fashion. This brings me to my first point. If you are creating an army that is going to be heavily converted and used to Count As another force the burden is on you to make sure people can tell with a fairly quick glance what is what in your army. In my opinion the models should have the actual weapons they are going to be armed with. It is easy enough for Marine armies to do. The veritable cornucopia of bits available on line should make it relatively easy to find all the bolters, missile launchers, chain swords, and jump packs we could possibly need to make the army WYSIWYG. "But Wait! That isn't always possible, what if I want to do an army that isn't MEQ!? You're stifling my creativity!" That brings me to my second point.
 |
| Again, a Goatboy creation that is pretty WYSIWYG yet original. |
 |
| Hulksmash's Admech Daemon Prince |
As the creator of a Counts As force you need to be prepared for a few things. If you are are going to make a non-marine counts as force that isn't going to have easily represented weapons or wargear then be prepared for the grumbling. It is going to happen no matter how much I write about how people should deal with it like adults, sadly. You also should be prepared to make the army look amazing. If you are going to do an entire Counts As Daemon army it better be well converted and well painted or people are going to think you are just slapping plastic card and left over bits together to make an army without paying any money. Is that assumption correct? Is it fair? God if I know but the reaction is true so be prepared if you do a slap stick job you will probably get a lack luster even borderline hostile response. So what's the difference? I will have to reference Hulksmash and Blackmoor for this one. Hulksmash is a really great guy to play against, unfotunately I only got to face him a handful of times before he moved but he makes nice armies and is an excellent player. He is also the owner of a very nice Adeptus Mechanicus counts as Daemons army. The picture above is his Daemon Prince, for more photos visit
here, obviously that is neither a Sentinel, a Terminator, nor a GW Daemon Prince model. The conversion is well done though and the paint job is nice. Were I to face this army I probably wouldn't have a problem with it especially is the Heavy Flamer is there to indicate that the DP has Breath of Chaos. Likewise Blackmoor has a Thousand Sons army that are Counts As Grey Knights. This isn't exactly unique or new but Blackmoor is also a highly respected and good player who is using a Counts As army. His army is red but uses primarily GK bits so it is far closer to WYSIWYG than Hulksmash's Daemon army. The thing that makes these two stand out in my mind is that they both have their heads on their shoulders and are well aware of the possible reactions people may have to their Counts As armies. In short, they are adults about the matter. "Well what about those of us who have to play against these armies!? I don't care about creativity, I shouldn't have to commit to memory what every Ork in a 160 model Counts As IG force is armed with!" Correct, and that brings me to point 3.
 |
| Ok, so these are my Grey Knight Paladins. The guy with the Chains has a Psycannon and the tabard has Falchions, the guy with the skull on his top has a Halberd, the guy with the long cod piece has a Wardingstave, and the other guy has a daemon hamer. You can remember that right? Ok so the Tactical squad with the "1" are Death Cult Assassins... |

If you are playing in a tournament our even, God forbid, outside the confines of the internet; you should expect to run into a Counts As army or two. They are becoming ever more common and while the good ones are usually quite beautiful to look at there are others that are simply nightmares to play against. I won't deny that a badly done Counts As army is a nightmare to play against. It is even to the point that there are times I have wondered if my opponent did up the army on purpose to gain an advantage by not being able to easily distinguish on unit from the next. So how do you as the opponent of this army fix the situation so you can still play a fair game? Easy. Stickynotes. Ask anyone I play with and they'll tell you I carry a set of small and medium sized sticky notes in my bag. If I run into an army that has units that are completely indistinguishable from one another or are absolutely not WYSISYG I pull out the stick notes. I will write down what each unit or large sized model has in terms of wargear ans weapons and attach them to the model. Of course I explain to my opponent before the game begins that while I enjoy his counts as army it is really difficult to tell what is what in his army and so I would like to attach sticky notes to some of the models or their bases to make sure I don't forget what is what. Should my opponent have a problem with this I will calmly say that's fine and ask if they have an equitable solution. If they have one great, if not I will calmly tell them I want to call over the T.O. to see if they can give us a better way to handle the situation. Generally at this point if the person is getting irate it is because they were hoping to use the confusion their models create to gain an advantage in the game, or in other words cheat. Sorry, I call a Spade a Spade. Another solution in this day and age is to take either a short video of the army with your iPhone, Android etc with the units being described or take photos of the units and add descriptions. Honestly the sticky notes are the best choice and generally get met with a good response from opponents.
Counts As has been around longer than Goatboy and it will be around long after all of us have moved on. The only way to handle Counts As armies is if we can all begin to act like adults instead of whiny Jr. High kids. Use common sense and a little ingenuity to come up with an equitable arrangement to deal with the problems you have and be civil. Also remember that part of a T.O. or League Organizers job is to mediate disagreements between players and this includes mediating problems over Counts As armies. I know this is the internet but striving for a little maturity and civility really couldn't hurt our community, right?
Bullshit!
ReplyDeleteI really liked this article, as I plan to model and use was counts as models. This article was nice enough I shared with my alpha legion community online as we have some new and returning members to the modeling and painting aspect of the game. Thanks again for the great piece overwatch :)
ReplyDelete@Anonymous, helpful comment as always. Very informative, I particularly liked the part where you pointed out your specific issues and offered up your own opinion for discussion. Very big of you.
ReplyDelete@Nalzeroth, thanks! I am currently working on an army that is designed to allow me to use the vehicles for Grey knights, Templars, SM, and CSM. The army has a basic paint scheme and I have figured out ways to make the basic marines able to be differentiated depending upon the codex being used. GK excluded, their armament is just too different so the basic GK infantry models and characters will be actual GK models painted up in my paint scheme.
@Overwatch, not as always as I rarely reply to blogs. I've been playing CSMs since the 90's. I also play Daemons and Traitor guard(Vraks). My main issue is that i'm a bit tired of weak CSM players proxying up to "better" codexes to cover for their lack of skill. Same goes for loyalist marines. The same guys that couldn't settle on the Special Character of the month are the same guys that went from SM to SW to BA to GK.
ReplyDeleteNow I have no problem with proxying to test a unit/army to see what works or to train a friend up for a tournament but, if you want to run CSMs as Wolves, I believe there is a paint scheme in the Codex. Same for BA. I also have no problems with "counts as" for armies that GW will never produce IE Mechanicus. My point is that if you are a weak player PLAY YOUR ARMY. That is how you get better, not Codex hopping and "counts as". I'm also tired of people covering for Goatboy. Let him cover for himself. The Black Parade.
Do you acknowledge any other reasons for aforementioned Chaos players using counts-as armies, i.e. reasons not rooted in the strength of the player or competitive viability of the army?
ReplyDeleteWhen I see an anonymous reply I assume it the comment came from the same guy who is usually leaving anonymous comments on here.
ReplyDeleteYou're talking about a different issue. I never mentioned flavor of the month or codex hoping in the article. The article was about how to handle the problems that arise with Counts As armies themselves not the reasons behind them. Not everyone who creates a Counts As force is codex hoping or a flavor of the month player.
As far as Goatboy goes I am equally tired of people blasting him because he creates unique conversions and enjoys the hobby aspect of this hobby more than just copying paint schemes and models straight off the GW site and out of GW codices. Imagination isn't a bad thing yet people act like his imagination shouldn't be tolerated.
I don't like like the counts as to the degree people do it i.e counts as army. I think you're moving from the codex of the month just to use, say Grey Knights for example, instead of buying the actual models. I know this is a cheaper way, but it seems tacky and just moving from power codex to power codex.
ReplyDeleteAs for Hulksmash's army for example, I respect the paint job etc, but that army is a little bullshit. The Terminator isn't a Daemon Prince. It looks nothing like a Daemon Prince. It's half a Terminator stuck on Sentinel legs. It looks nothing admech either. I am sorry, but it looks like a poor/basic converion with random bits just glued on.