Let's take a look at the winning 5th ed lists. IG lots of shooting with AV 12 spammed all over. Necrons lots of shooting with AV11 and AV13 spam potential, I would say they are doing it 1 better than IG at the moment. BA Rzorspam, lots of AV11 with AV13 mixed in. Ummm... Necrons AV11 with AV13 mixed in? Space Wolves Missile Spam and AV11 parking lots, Dark Eldar AV10 and 11 open topped vehicles again Necrons are right there. Deathwing, footslogging missile spam, ok you've got me there not much equivalent in the new Necron... Nope I was wrong again, foot slogging immortals accompanied by 9 Heavy Destroyers and various other anti-meq/ch units like scarabs definitely fits the bill here too. Grey Knights Razorspam/Psyfleman Dread/Purifier spam utilizes a lot of AV 11 and 12, again nothing in common with Necrons there either.
The top lists are all the same archetype. They feature low AV, low cost, shooting based elements that are meant to cripple you at range and mop you up in CC when necessary. Again, no similarities between that archetype and the new Necrons at all. In the top lists these days all the high AV units like Land Raiders, Leman Russ' etc don't see the light of day. Necron Monolith got nerfed and probably won't pan out as more than a 0-1; so again no correlation there either (I really hope your sarcasm alarm kicked in). Look, I understand Quantum Shielding is awesome (sort of), but when it's gone you still have a bunch of AV11 vehicles running around (if the shot that took the field away doesn't immobilize, wreck, or explode the vehicle you have a 50/50 there). All I am trying to say is that this book is not all that different from the rest and I think we're going to find, as play-testing of the new book goes on, that the army will be following the same basic tenets that the other codices follow. Lots of shooting from low AV vehicles, the main difference being those low AV, high shooting vehicles in a Necron army transport a lot more guys who will add even more shooting into the mix.
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| Can I troll my own blog? |
The true strength of the codex isn't in the very fragile gimmick of Quantum Shielding. The strength of the codex as I see it so far is in the same low AV, lots of shooting mech list that the other codices have been espousing for 4 years now, except the Necrons are going to be doing those other lists 1 better. The 1 better coming from better shooting units inside those transports (except perhaps GK), more survivable vehicles, and the kicker in the equation Crypteks, C'tan, and Characters that will create headaches for your opponent from the beginning to the end of the game by manipulating factors outside the realm of the other players control. Will Quantum Shielding help you're list be more survivable? Of course, but that doesn't mean you can only take vehicles with Quantum Shielding to be competitive. If you're relying on Quantum Shielding to win you games with your new shiny Necron list then I am afraid you're doing it wrong. This codex doesn't have an easy button build so trying to act like Quantum Shielding equipped vehicle spam is it won't fly. The Night Scythe and Doom Scythe are not terrible choices because they lack Quantum Shielding; Dark Eldar/SM/SW/BA/GK players have been making due and winning with AV 11 vehicles for years now without the benefit of Quantum Shielding. Play smart and a few Night Scythes and Doom Scythes will really ruin an opponents army fast, the Doomsday Ark is simply too fragile and prone to the same drawbacks as any single shot large blast weapon to be considered an amazing must have.
Hi, liked the article alot and it made sense.
ReplyDeleteOne thing, please use spacing between paragraphs XD it was kinda hard to read.
I see your point up until you factor in that Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't open topped and cost way more than half what the Night Scythe costs.
ReplyDeleteI agree Night Scythes aren't useless, but with their cost you can't be as frivolous with them as cheap Space Marine and DEldar transports.
" All I am trying to say is that this book is not all that different from the rest and I think we're going to find, as play-testing of the new book goes on, that the army will be following the same basic tenets that the other codices follow. "
ReplyDeleteThat's the principle I'll be following as I contemplate Necrons. What's good, and how can I do what's good with them?
An interesting read, but i am afraid i disagree, and here is why.
ReplyDeletei think that you miss the point a little. Imperial and Dark Eldar transports fall into two categories, delivery and support transports. the former are just boxes designed to protect troops on their way forward. Rhinos are the best example of this, raiders to a lesser extent. support transports, razorbacks and chimeras, are designed to protect fragile troops and lend fire support.
delivery transports are seriously cheap, lack weaponry, and their usefulness is reliant on what is inside. support transports are able to do this as well, but they also add enormous amounts of firepower to a force. both are generally cheap enough to be taken in droves.
furthermore, and this is important, the troops inside most imperial and Dark Eldar transports want to do one of three things. get in your face and rapid fire you, get to midfield, get out and sit there in cover from their transports shooting you, or sit in their boxes and shoot heavy weapons from the top.
Necrons can do none of these things with either their troops choices or their transports.
neither transport is cheap, so you are unable to take that many. the only troops choice that can lend meaningful fire support is unable to take the transport that would help it to do so. the one transport that can lend meaningful fire support is highly visible, comparatively fragile, and if it dies the troops have to walk on from reserve, making the existence of the transport irrelevant in the first place! furthermore, the only one of the three options above that Necrons want to do (sit in midfield) is impossible because the transports are skimmers and wont give you cover!
Necron units, by and large, don't want to get close to you, and don't need to to do their damage, so why take a load of transports they soak up points and don't add much firepower? besides, Necron units are resilient enough without transports, and can be taken in large numbers.
in conclusion, what i don't think we will see is MSU in the sense that imperial and Dark Eldar armies run. Necron units don't have the special weapons to make small units useful. i want to stress that both transports will have a place in many lists because the Ghost Arc is quite durable, able to spawn extra Necrons, and gives some much needed mobility. the Night Scythe is very fast and accordingly adds some mobility, but is again very expensive.
"in conclusion, what i don't think we will see is MSU in the sense that imperial and Dark Eldar armies run. Necron units don't have the special weapons to make small units useful. i want to stress that both transports will have a place in many lists because the Ghost Arc is quite durable, able to spawn extra Necrons, and gives some much needed mobility. the Night Scythe is very fast and accordingly adds some mobility, but is again very expensive. "
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more. Perhaps I wasn't clear but I DO NOT believe MSU will work for Necrons in any way shape or form. They will need the large squads to compete.
I need to test the Night Scythe out a little more but I don't think it is that fragile, then again I am assuming the stand it is on won't be very high, if it is then yes the Night Scythe will be far more fragile than I am envisioning. I am envisioning a model closer in height to an Eldar Wave Serpeant than a Vendetta. I will probably be wrong though...
Thanks for the responses, I always appreciate criticism and discussion!
haha, how did i miss that about your post? wierd xD
ReplyDeleteoh well, thanks for not taking offense at my lack of reading comprehension!
Hey there, found this blog via a blogroll, thought I'd see what the rant would say :-p
ReplyDeleteI think you're right in the sense that most armies operate similarly to each other through vehicles doing the same thing.
I guess I'm confused as to how the logic of this works, though, especially regarding the Doom Scythe...
Yes, lots of armies derive their power from AV11. However, they do so for 75 points or less. Blood Angels do it for particularly cheap.
The Doom Scythe is 175 points, for a vehicle that needs to be close-up to make full use of it's points.
In the end, I think my personal thoughts go in this vein: is a Doom Scythe worth 175 points, for what it does?
The answer is invariably "no", and not because it's not AV13, but because of a ton of other factors which *include* the lack of survivability. Others include 1)horrifically short range, 2)gimmicky nature of the weapon, and 3)the fact that they take up Heavy Support slots that could be used for things that are much more cost-efficient.
Comparing a 175-point vehicle that takes up valuable HS slots, to a dedicated transport that can be taken x9 for less than half the cost (and have in my opinion better rules overall) isn't what I'd call a solid comparison. The fact that they're both vehicles with AV11 doesn't mean they're the same thing, by any means.
It's like comparing a Sternguard veteran to an Ork Boy because they both have T4 and are infantry models with guns. And to continue that comparison, judging that because Ork Boyz are competitive choices that work well in their codex, the Sternguard are also competitive choices, because T4 infantry models with guns are always worth their points in any given army.
At least, that's what it seems like you're getting at. If I didn't read it right, sorry, not trying to start a flamewar or anything. In fact, even if I *did* read it right, I'm not trying to start a flamewar :)
Nightscythe in my opinion is a much better option, because it can be spammed, and is far cheaper than it's obnoxiously expensive counterpart.
I guess the point is that you have to decide what works for Necrons, not based on comparisons to other armies (though that data is certainly useful), but because of how strong the choices actually are in the context of the army.
If you can make a strong list with Doomscythes, more power to you. I'd personally much prefer the Annihilation Barges or Spyders though :)
Hope this didn't seem rude/overly critical/condescending, it wasn't meant as such, but rather my attempt to articulate my thoughts on the matter :-p