Wednesday, January 5, 2011

Blood Angels: Only 2 ways to play BA?

The 5th edition Blood Angels codex has been out for a few months now and despite all the "sky is falling!", "what is GW thinking?!", "guess there are going to be a lot of green Blood Angels now..." hullabaloo, I don't see that many variations of BA lists or nearly as many BA players as Space Wolves.  In fact four units people were crying foul over, namely: Sanguinary Guard, Stormravens, Death Company, and Dread Spam, don't even make appearances in most lists.  With the exception of including Sanguinary Guard in a few Dante builds I don't see these at all; on the net or in person.  Let's take a look at the two most common build types and see why these are seen as the "only way to play BA."

First up is the Descent of Angels list.  With or without Dante this list can be found at almost every FLGS, League, Campaign, or Tournament.  It is a competitive build with a few glaring weaknesses and relies on luck quite a bit.  The nice thing about this list is if you played BA prior to this codex you probably already had a lot of the models you would need, second it fits rather nicely with the Blood Angels fluff, something you can't say about a lot of the "top tier" army builds out there.  Here is an example of a DoA (Descent of Angels) BA list, this one does not feature Dante.

HQ:
2x Librarian with Jump Pack
Honor Guard with 1xLightning Claw/Storm Shield, 1xLightning Claw, 1xPower Weapon/StormShield, 1xPower Weapon, Novitiate, 5x Jump Packs
Elites:
3x Sanguinary Priests with Jump Packs
Troops:
3x 10 man Assault Squad with 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist
Fast Attack: 
Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs, 4x Lightning Claws, 1x Powerfist 2x Storm Shields
Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs, 4x Lightning Claws, 1x Powerfist 1x Storm Shield


The strategy with this list is to have the whole army Deep Strike.  Hopefully they will come in on Turn 2 thanks to DoA.  Anyone unfamiliar with the new codex will wonder why you would deepstrike a 10 man unit with Jump Packs and endanger them with mishaps.  DoA says you only scatter 1d6 inches not 2, making it infinitely better to deepstrike BA JP equipped units.  The Vanguard Veterans can assault the turn they deepstrike and really mess things up, there are 4 Feel No Pain/Furious Charge bubbles thanks to the Sanguinary Priests and Novitiate taking care of your assault potential.  Plenty of Melta weapons means you have an excellent collection of Anti-Tank options.  It is easy to see why this list would do well, but equally easy to see weaknesses.  The list is thoroughly predictable and against a savvy opponent you will either find his mech force held entirely in reserve or castled in a corner "bubble wrapped" with vehicles so the Heroic Intervention from the Vanguard Vets will be much less effective.  Conversely a Horde list will simply reserve out against you mitigating the damage done on your initial drop.  Obviously these tactics won't cause DoA BA to auto-lose but it certainly gives your opponent a much better chance at beating you.  Predictability can be a real detriment to any army list.


The other type of Blood Angel list you see a lot of is the Razorback Spam Mechanized force.  If you are a reader of Capture and Control you'll know I have a series about Razorback Spam going.  I don't particularly feel MSU (Multiple Small Units) are a good idea in 5th edition 40k.  I feel these MSU heavy lists are a throwback to the old 5 man Las/Plas squads of 4th edition except now instead of a Las Cannon and Plasma Gun on two marines in a squad you get 5 Marines with a Las Cannon and Plasma Gun on a tank chassis.  Same thing, new edition.  The Blood Angel Mech list however is very strong.  Lots of tanks that can move 12 inches and still fire weapons or move 18 inches and pop smoke is a terribly effective build.  In fact, of the two builds we're talking about I believe it is the superior list.  Here is an example of what we're talking about.

HQ:
Librarian with Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius,
Elites: 
2 Sanguinary Priests
Troops:
5x 5 man Assault Squad with Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback
Fast Attack:
3x Baal Predator with Heavy Flamer Sponsons, Flamestorm Cannon and Dozer Blade
Heavy Support:
3x Predator with TL Autocannon and Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Obviously the Librarian and Priests will ride with different squads in the Razorbacks.  The troops in this army aren't really designed to fight.  The list is supposed to move super fast, get into position, and unload a rain of shots all over your opponents army until it dies in a bath of liquid promethium and bullets.  The troops are there to provide you with the Las/Plas Razorback solution to losing the 4th ed 5 man Las/Plas squads as discussed earlier.  There is no doubt this list is effective, fast and filled with Spam(Christopher, I am sure you are just dying a little inside). 

So why is it you only see these kinds of lists?  Probably because they contain massive amounts of redundancy and require the least amount of fore thought and planning.  Both lists are very push button, they can practically play themselves.  If you know all the Special Rules and how they work then you can sit down and map out turns 1-4 pretty easily and confidently.  The problem with that is so can your opponent.  Jawaballs took overall with a Mech BA list at Mechanicon.  It wasn't exactly the same as the above list but similar.  This was what he took.

Librarian with STR 10 and Preferred enemy powers
Elite chaplain with melta pistol
Elite sang priest in termy armor w/ PW
RAS assault squad x4 in razor backs. Each has a PW. two have melta guns.
3 las/plas razors and one heavy flamer
Predator with auto cannon/las cannons spons x3
assault termies claws x4 hammer x1 in Land Raider Crusader with EA and melta gun

You can find his whole article on his list and Mechanicon here.  Personally I think Jawaballs list is much better than the Mech list above it, and Jawaballs seemed to be surprised at his own performance.  It is a better list because it has elements that were more unpredictable than the others, and had units you don't normally see together in a BA list.

I find it to be quite a quandary why BA players are doing either all DOA or all Mech.  If you wanted a truly versatile list surely a mix would be best.  I am not saying you can build the best BA list ever by doing this but if you think about BA Rhino Chassis vehicles and Jump Pack equipped BAs then you should see the two are made to be used together; here's why.

1. When you deep strike a unit with SW (Space Wolves) or VM (Vanilla Marines) you are leaving them high and dry and unsupported, usually.  Dropping a Drop pod in turn one, usually close to your opponents deployment zone means it will take at least 2 full turns to get your other units there to support them.  With Blood Angels and their Fast vehicles that isn't the case.  If you use Drop Pods or DoA your Rhino Chassis vehicles can be in support range with in a single turn rather than 2.  The added support and target saturation provided by Vehicles getting closer will help those Deep Striking units survive in a way that SW and VM can't.
2. If you use JP troops with either SW or VM then you probably know the frustration of hiding them behind a Rhino or Razorback wall.  The Rhino(s) move 12 inches then the Jump Pack troops move 12 inches and their ability to run is wasted.  With BA on the first turn, or any turn, you can move your Rhino/Razorback wall 18 inches giving your JP troops plenty of room to move and run their full distance giving you much more flexibility with your JP troops than any other Marine codex can provide.

This is what we like to call Synergy in a list.  The two types of units work in complimentary ways with one another.  Your whole army can act in concert with one another to reach a goal.  Granted the all DoA or Mech list also have synergy between the units, but with both those lists you are pigeonholing yourself into one tactic that can be easily anticipated and compensated for by your opponent.  A mixed list is less predictable, less push button, and more likely to cause your opponent headaches than a predictable, push button, "I know what you're going to do before you do it" list.

What do you think?  Are there only 2 ways to play BA?  Or can you build competitive mixed lists with both Jump Packs and vehicles?

12 comments:

  1. My soul hurts.
    I have to agree with you though (part of the reason my soul hurts, the rest being all the spam I just swallowed reading those lists). The appeal of both DoA BA and mech BA is the push button factor. 40k players want to win with the least amount of thought required.

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  2. I second what Christopher says. I agree with you and it makes my soul hurt as well. Although I think the all Descent of Angels lists are terrible. I can beat them any day of the week with my Guard.

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  3. Those two that you mentioned are good builds but not the only viable lists for BA. I am a big fan of Blood Hammer (DoA and Devs). Something like this for 1750 points:

    Librarian, Jump Pack, The Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
    2 x Sanguinary Priest, Jumpack, Lightning Claw
    Sanguinary Priest
    Sanguinary Guard, Power First, 2 Infernus Pistol
    Techmarine, Jump Pack, Combi Melta
    10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltagun, Sergeant (Power Fist, Meltabomb)
    10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltagun, Sergeant (Power Fist)
    3 x 10 Devastators, 4 Missile Launchers

    Nipplewing can also be a fun army to play and also not too bad for tournaments:

    Commander Dante
    Librarian, Jump Pack, The Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
    2 x Sanguinary Priest, Jumpack, Lightning Claw
    3 x Sanguinary Guard, Power Fist, 2 x Infernus Pistol
    2 x Sanguinary Guard, Power Fist, Infernus Pistol

    Kirby's Blood Roder is viable too.

    I think people should also explore the potential of S9 Thunderhammer or S5 Lightning Claws Terminators in Landraiders.

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  4. Sorry but REALLY????

    I think your assumptions are based entirely on your local meta. 2 builds only??? wow :S!

    Ok so what about the dual raider FNP raider lists with backed up assault mariens which scored the highest pts at last years ETC. What about the Storm raven rush tactic with corbulo, fnp termies and a furioso dread, backed up by mephiston and predators.

    What about the Hybrid razorbacks and assault marine lists. What about the FNP devastators with Drop pod Ass marines and furiosos.

    What about the Baal/pred spam with honor guard units in razorbacks and assmarine sin twin-flamer razorbacks with mephiton.

    Hell, your 2 lists don't even include mephiton, yet in most tourneys I attend (19 in 2010), 60% of the BA's had mephiston.

    What about the Libby dreads with wings and mght of heroes? I see them plenty of times and are savage!! What about dual Libbys in honor guard squads with jump packs and lots of ass marines with meltaguns! Iuno, I think there are plenty out there. Its hard to really say theres on 2 solid builds over the internet!

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  5. Umm... That was sort of his entire point Killswitch. The whole article was a "Sorry but REALLY????" response to sites like Dakka and Warseer where you see these DoA Razor Spam lists all over the place and any list that's posted that is contrary to those 2 build types is ripped to shreds by posters. A lot of the time simple posting an opinion contrary to the ideas of all DoA all Razorspam is enough to illicit incredibly hostile responses.

    "Hell, your 2 lists don't even include mephiton, yet in most tourneys I attend (19 in 2010), 60% of the BA's had mephiston." Would you like OW to post every conceivable variation on any list he posts in an article?

    "Ok so what about the dual raider FNP raider lists with backed up assault mariens which scored the highest pts at last years ETC. What about the Storm raven rush tactic with corbulo, fnp termies and a furioso dread, backed up by mephiston and predators.

    What about the Hybrid razorbacks and assault marine lists. What about the FNP devastators with Drop pod Ass marines and furiosos.

    What about the Baal/pred spam with honor guard units in razorbacks and assmarine sin twin-flamer razorbacks with mephiton." So what about them? I don't play in the LA area with OW so I can't be subject to the same meta and I don't see those builds either. All I see are DoA, Nipplewing (Nice Anti-Pope hadn't heard that one), and Razorspam. Not to say I wouldn't LOVE to see the builds you're talking about. It would certainly be refreshing.

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  6. "Kirby's Blood Roder is viable too."
    What is that!?

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  7. Ok, to be honest I didn't get the irony in the post either.

    Nipplewing is a funny term, I saw it a while back.

    Blood Rodeo : http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-to-blood-rodeo.html

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  8. I wasn't trying to be ironic. Just not overly harsh towards people I am friends with who believe those are the only 2 builds possible with BA. I don't want to end up friendless, alone, and TFG after all! I'll be more clear with my criticisms next time.

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  9. That's your problem OW, you're a nice guy. Nice guys finish last especially on the internet. You should have started the article out something like this:

    All you Blood Angel players on Dakka, Warseer, BoLS Lounge, Bolter and Chainsword (you get the idea) who keep saying the only way to run BA is as DoA Spam or Razorspam are the largest load of @#$& faced idiots on the face of this earth and should be removed to benefit the rest of mankind.

    That would have been a proper start to your article. Stop being a good guy, no one wants to read articles by people who are nice!

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  10. There are actually quite a few other lists that are quite viable- Kirby has already been mentioned, but he has tried out a number of different configurations, as have others.

    Blood Hammer looks like a standard DoA list, but runs Devastators in place of Vanguard and tends to mix in Sanguine Guard as well. This gives it different deployment options and a very different threat profile, as I found when he wrecked my Tyranids with it.

    Nipple Hammer is the Dante + all SG army (also Golden Shower and other names). Unlike DoA armies, it has little interest in starting off-table because it can't assault as quickly as it does so.

    Blood Rodeo combines the distinct mobility of bikes with that of jump troops to create an interesting hybrid army.

    Razorbacks are not the only mechanized army; Rhinos are still a viable way to deliver an assault force.

    Dread spam and Pred spam, while something of gimmick armies, are not ignorable contenders in the field at large; both of them outclass many "classic" armies.

    Stormravens can be a deadly way to deliver a hammer unit, as can Land Raiders, and BA can field pairs or triplets of either.

    All of the above aside, the "hybrid" list (jump troops behind vehicle hulls) doesn't work the way most people think it does and so most versions I've seen around aren't particularly good. A hybrid needs to combine the advantages of its parent lists while trying to mitigate their weaknesses- simply having your ASM fly behind tanks does not do this.

    BA, like the other 5E books, is incredibly flexible and diverse. The fact that people haven't explored it as much as they could is more their fault than the book's.

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  11. I agree with Abusepuppy and going by my (re)read of the article and from OW's comments on Dakka I am confident he did as well. I definitely agree with you OW, the RB Spam and DoA Spam lists are being done to death! My question for you though is how would you deal with both DoA/BA RB spam using vanilla marines? My main army right now is Vanilla marines and the only armies I am having trouble with in my local area are BA DoA/RB spam.

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  12. Sure thing Bryan. Why don't you e-mail me your basic army list and a list of other models you may have and I will see what I can come up with. Conversely if you are willing to just buy anything you don't have I can just answer you outright.

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